Monday, November 26, 2007

U4Prez Federalist #3

I appreciate the massive support being received upon this Constitution I've been proudly assigned to administer. On this very blog, I initiated the concept of a Constitution, something that would create a structure for ethics, candidates and moderators alike. The enormous support I'm getting from every angle is evidence that I am not alone in the belief that U4Prez has shortcomings, and if we all work as a community, there is nothing we can't achieve together.

I also appreciate the many dissenting voices, and I hope they continue to come. Without differences of opinion, these drafts we write will be shortsighted, and mistakes we as a Constitution Committee make may not be seen until it is too late. Without many different opinions coming to this vortez, yea and nay, this Constitution will not receive the legitimacy it truly needs. The hope is, through all these differing voices, we can put our selfish agendas aside in this endeavor, so far the largest, most complex, and certainly the least partisan project in the short history of U4Prez.

I do know the difference, however, between honest dissent and bullshit. I can tell when a candidate has a true grievance, a problem, a question needing an answer, and someone kicking over a sandcastle just because they can. I have had many spirited debates the last few weeks on this, and I know who is sincere and who isn't.

BigDaddy is not one of the sincere ones. Anytime someone has the audacity to call his editorial a Federalist Paper, and compare those seeking negotiations with the moderators a bunch of Nazis ransacking the Jews, it's time to wonder how rational he is. Typically, when in an argument, the first to pull out the Nazi card is the loser. In Daddy's case, since he pretty much calls anyone who ever opposes him a fascist, a collectivist, a communist, whatever name pops into his head, I fail to see why anyone would take him seriously.

Federalist #1 blown out of the water, let's blow out Federalist #2, this time taking on the name of Orwell. One of the concepts George Orwell talked about was doublethink, the ability to hold opposing views in one's mind can make perfect sense of it. BigDaddy has already contributed to the brainstorming process of this Constitution, having initially made a remark to MejicoJohn concerning a cut-off limit for voting in the general election. I invite the candidates of U4Prez to rummage through the U4Prez Constitution caucus, about three weeks ago, and there's BigDaddy, brainstorming it up for all to see, even though he was against it. Now, some might spring to the word hypocrite in this case, how can a candidate allegedly against the Constitution give ideas for it? Some may call this hypocrisy or a contradiction. Not me. It's just doublethink.

Daddy, do me a favor, if you're going to namedrop, drop a name you're familiar with. Federalist #2 down the crapper.

Having put the biggest blowhard at U4Prez behind us, we can get a little more serious.

This Constitution is not the work of one person, and I have said over and over, a committee is being put together to ferret out the latest draft. The first draft was written largely by Faustus before the general election, with at least myself, Wiz, and Lucky contributing to it. Along with which, two dozen candidates from all parties participated in the brainstorming session a couple weeks ago, and many ideas from that session made its way to the second draft. A committee will be announced in the next day or so to continue the rewrites, and as always, continued criticism is appreciated and definitely needed. I would say, around forty candidates have chimed in on one level or another. For U4Prez, that's a solid handful. Anyone who thinks this is Olivia doing it all is sadly mistaken.

The biggest complaint I hear concerning this Constitution is that it violates the rights of ownership. There's a lot of talk these days about private property and its sanctity, and a whole lot of energy has been spect on the subject. And I agree with every one of you who believe that the candidates have no right to dictate what ownership should do. President Faustus agrees with this as well, that the candidates are toothless to enforce a damn word of this Constitution.

But BigDaddy, and many of the others who oppose this Constitution on the grounds of the private property issue, agree with Faustus and me in that, if we want any sort of changes made at U4Prez, it will only happen through negotiation. This much, I think every candidate who has had to sit and deal with much of the mediocrity the moderators have handed us this year, we can agree upon, that if we want anything to change, it has to be done through negotiation. Even the biggest son of a bitch here, BigDaddy, agrees.

Well then, if we're all in agreement on this, what's the problem?

If the moderators don't want it, it won't happen, plain and simple. There's no way we can put a gun to Eric Gurr's head to enforce anything.

For all the talk about this Constitution being a form of tyranny, not a single candidate has come forth and explained how this Constitution can be enforced without the moderator's approval. No one has shown a single method in which we candidates can wring the server our of the moderator's hands and wrest power away for ourselves. Not one of you who have bellyached about this issue have come up with a plan for the lunatics to overrun the asylum and take it over. And until you do, I consider any talk about forcing anything on the moderators complete shit.

What's more, when I ask for someone to explain to me exactly which rights we will be taking away from the moderators, no one has an answer except me. The only "rights" the Constitution seeks to take away from the moderators is the ability to be lazy and negligent without at least a slap on the wrist. That is, of course, if we first had the ability to unilaterally force anything on the moderators in the first place.

Until I hear a cohesive argument about how we silly candidates are going to ramrod this Constitution down Eric Gurr's throat, I will consider that subject closed. Until someone stands up and tells me exactly how the desire for the moderators to do the job they're fucking paid for in the first place is somehow snatching their rights away, again, I see no merit in pursuing the argument further.

For all the namedropping and hyperbole BigDaddy offers, in the end it's just another rant spewed upon the U4Prez population, another attempt at a GOTCHA. He cares not one whit about Eric Gurr or U4Prez, they could both go to Hell as far as he's concerned. So long as he can get a GOTCHA, that's all he wants. And who better to try to knock down than his old nemesis, Olivia? He's tried to play GOTCHA with me and failed miserably over and over again. This has nothing to do with constitutional conviction for him, don't ever think otherwise. This is personal. He is a bully, I don't think anyone really thinks him to be anything but. He got his ass kicked by a girl for months, he has been exposed to be nothing but a mean fool trying to manipulate U4Prez for his own amusement, and here's Olivia, being loud and proud again, let's knock her and her little project down if we can. He's not doing this out of any principles, because he's proven he wipes his ass with principles. This is a bully trying to get in just one shot, after having the crap beaten out of him time and again, before he is knocked out once and for all.

Perish the thought, but exactly what would these candidates do if Eric Gurr actually thought the Constitution was worthy of consideration? I want you to think about that one, because it goes to the core of why you fight for his private property rights against a Constitution no one has proven will take a single right away, and no one has proven will not take effect without moderator permission. If he is for this, or at least for negotiating with the candidates for the sake of some meaningful changes, would you still be against this project? If Eric approves this, exactly how would we be forcing him to comply? Exactly which rights would we be violating? It's the same Constitution.

Or, if he is intrigued by the idea of this website, allegedly promoting democracy, having its very candidates, its users, pen a set of principles in which all might abide by, would that be what it takes to get you to jump on the bandwagon?

I appreciate dissent, never think I don't. But I will not accept a blanket accusation against a document, still in its larva stage, if you haven't read it. Show me where the great tyranny lies within. BigDaddy writes in generalities and paints with a broad brush, but he never tells you a single article or section that violates the principles he's allegedly championing. He talks about we who are writing this Constitution being Nazis taking property from the Jews, and yet he does not tell us how we will do this, by what means we will snatch power from the helpless moderators and declare ourselves diabolical rulers for life. He and others talk about violating rights, and yet no one can define what rights they are, and offer only generalities, clouds in the sky, wishful thinking on their part. BigDaddy thinks you all are a bunch of dumbshits he can easily sway for his own pleasure, he says so on his own talk show, he's just out there to play his little games. This is just another one, another attempt to GET Olivia.

I have always relied on the intelligence of the U4Prez community to do the right thing. Time has proven to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that when push comes to shove, the candidates will stop listening to empty rhetoric, bullying tactics, and meatless sophistry, and make a decision based on intelligence and principle. What I see in the candidates to be ethics and undertanding, BigDaddy will always see as strings he can use to yank you like the puppets he thinks you to be.

If this Constitution fails, either by moderator disinterest or inability to ratify, I will be proud of the work we've done in penning what we did, in raising the issue of U4Prez sovereignty, and in talking seriously about where U4Prez goes from here.

I encourage all candidates to not only continue to show your criticism, your dissent, and your support for this, but to also get involved in the process. As I've said, the early contenders for 2008 will get their start here. It's one thing to come to U4Prez and campaign, but if all you're going to do is bitch about politics, what's the point? This Constitution is a great idea to put yourpolitical abilities to practice, to show yourself to be a real leader. When this Constitution is ratified, we all will be able to point to it with pride and say, we made that. WE made that. Down the road, when we resume our campaigns and start talking about things like principles and leadership, you will be able to smile and say, what others merely talk about at U4Prez, I actually did it. While others were complaining, I stepped up and did something. While others continue to browbeat one another with useless rhetoric, you will tower above them as real candidates, real contenders, and real leaders.

Love, Olivia. XXX

13 comments:

W. Lane Startin said...

Gurr is well aware of what's going on. Every indication is that he will cooperate with us, and quite likely even enact some of the concepts espoused in the constitution of his own free will and accord. So much for "invasion of property."

In fact, the constitution push already had an appreciable impact on the site. Note that there were no minor parties at all in U4Prez until they were proposed in the Faustus/Lucky U4PC draft 1.0. You're welcome, Reform candidate Big Daddy.

While Gurr is not likely to accept the current draft carte blanche (which I didn't expect him to in the first place), progress is clearly being made here.

Copulate said...

Two points:

First, as Faustus proves, politicians suck!

Eric Gurr stating that he might "quite likely even enact some of the concepts espoused in the constitution" proves that this is nothing more than a "suggestion box"

The reason Politicians SUCK is because they can't write anything without bloviating ad nauseum about something that can be said in a few words.

Even when it is admittedly just a "suggestion box" ...you can't seem to stop yourselves and fill it with something akin to a child's Christmas Wish List.

Write a freaking suggestion and quit acting like a freaking politician earmarking a bunch of useless pork to make yourselves think you "look good."

SECOND. If you, Olivia are going to talk about "name calling" you should look in the mirror. Your continued assault of Eric Gurr, and the Mods is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE!

Statements like...

"The only "rights" the Constitution seeks to take away from the moderators is the ability to be lazy and negligent"

AND

"the desire for the moderators to do the job they're fucking paid for in the first place"

Only goes to show you just how deep your hatred runs. Exactly what are statements like that going to do to get your Little(snicker) Constitution enacted by the people that actually OWN the site?

Statements like those only show your disdain for the job these guys are doing to make THEIR COMPANY's more profitable and continue its growth.

They are doing a good job to correct the issues that have been brought up by the candidates already.....

This constitution thingy is just a REALLY LONG suggestion stuffed into a box that has been around since day one. You guys are just trying to sell it with a really weak name.

W. Lane Startin said...

I'd respond by telling Copulate (and his approximately 41 alter egos), that this is a process focused on RESULTS. Call it a constitution, call it a suggestion box, call it Aunt Mae's Peach Cobbler, I don't care. The fact remains the process serves its intended purpose.

What have you done to effect positive change? And don't mention kempite; his pelt is all shot to hell from all the times you nailed it to the wall already ...

Seriously, this has always been about dialogue with the site admin. If you people really think this is about taking U4Prez over from Eric Gurr in any sense, well, you just need better, more fulfilling lives, or something.

Olivia said...

Two questions are on the board for Tweedledee and Tweedledum. One, exactly how is it a bunch of online users are supposed to forcibly take over a website and take power away from it's owner? And two, which section of this Constitution is evidence of anything tyrannical? And, exactly which specific rights are being taken away from a set of moderators who apparently are at least willing to listen? Oops, that's three, not two. I'm sure Copulate will wet his pants over that one, calling me a damn liar for saying two and then it was really three.

Mike said...

The point I believe several have made and that has great validity is that we should get buy in from the moderators BEFORE we try to complete such a document. Otherwise, we're devoting a lot of time to pursuing a set of proposals that might be dead in the water, while an alternative might be available. We should know what the mods think of the draft, what changes they would like to see based on what they will or will not allow and then go from there. It is pointless to beat each other up over the details of a proposal that might be utterly meaningless.

The moderators are (at a minimum) equal partners in this site with us. Their input in a document that would involve them is essential. How anyone can argue that it makes sense to continue to debate and battle over the details of various drafts without taking pause to get specific feedback from the mods is beyond me.

You don't sit around and write an entire trade agreement with just the members from one country and then dump it on the country you propose to implement it with. We all know that would be a stupid policy. So why then are we attempting to follow that same flawed methodology in this case? Is there some validity to Copulate's argument that Olivia's animosity towards the mods is so deep as to make her unable to work with them instead of just against them? Why else would she not be including that key voice in the deliberations of her committee? Surely, logic and reason dictate that such a collaboration is necessary and desirable.

My argument against this Constitution has been the same since the very beginning. It is a waste of time if the moderators are not on board. So, how about putting all the name-calling and incessant ego battling aside, swallow your pride and contact the mods, show them what is done, get their thoughts and make them at least equal partners in this process. Otherwise, it is all just a huge waste of time.

W. Lane Startin said...

Negotiation with the admins has always been the main focus. You can't very well negotiate with the admins (or anyone else, for that matter) if you don't have something to negotiate with. We have that now. Will it be substantially altered by the time it comes out the other side? I count on it.

Besides, Olivia is not negotiating directly with the admins anyway. I am. Olivia task is to form a committee and produce something we could show to both the admins and the user base. There may be a ratification vote on it. Or, a vote may not even be necessary. Gurr may very well just take some of the concepts we proposed and run with them. As long as the job is done, doesn't bother me either way.

While the end result may not be a "constitution" per se, it will define rules of engagement for future elections. That's the central, core concept. Everything else is semantics and window dressing.

Mike said...

Why then not simply point out areas that need to be improved and offer suggestions instead of go through the pretense of a Constitution if you have no real expectation of such being implemented and are primarily concerned with knocking out a system punch list?

Mike said...

In other words, this whole process seems like a political expediency and a way to sideline some of the more vocal candidates onto a non-issue that you can walk away clean from by declaring a victory if you get anything and letting those who are disappointed continue to blame the mods for their problems.

W. Lane Startin said...

Mainly to address the "make-it-up-as-we-go-along" element that this site tends to have. I'm not going to speculate as to why that's the case. Frankly I don't particularly care. The important thing to note is that it has been a problem in the past. I think Gurr recognizes that.

The rules not only need to exist, but they need to be documented and made public. Thus far that part has been sketchy at best.

W. Lane Startin said...

Well, it's certainly not my idea to glom on ridiculous arguments like "property rights." If it weren't for this, I'm sure some the aforementioned vocal candidates would find another non-issue to whine incessantly about.

Olivia said...

I appreciate Mike setting personal differences aside and speaking his mind on this. I truly wish notable others could do the same.

I read your comments on U4Prez earlier today, and it sounds like we agree on several points, and if memory serves, we've always agreed on them. One is the agreement that many mistakes were made in 2007. Another is it really sucks to see a fellow candidate get screwed. A third is we candidates have not only no right to tell the moderators what to do, but no way to enforce it if we could. One last one, I agree, egos are getting in the way, and for as much as I would like to bag on BigDaddy and Copulate for being blithering assholes on this, I know I've been the bullseye for a lot of this, and Faustus has joined in and argued perhaps as fiercely as he ever has at U4Prez. There is indeed a personality clash, and it's overshadowing the Constitution itself.

So why don't we start with what we agree on, and that is, there are flaws at U4Prez, and if we work WITH the moderators, perhaps we can make everything a little smoother, a little less chaotic, and every candidate who comes in can at least know what's going on.

We can debate about whether or not the Constitution draft is premature, but mind you, it is a DRAFT!

There seem to be two prongs in which Faustus and I are putting this all together. Faustus, as a president here should, is trying to work with the moderators and Eric Gurr, to feel them out, to get their feeling on things. Mike, you're right, it's all wasted energy if they're not on board. To my knowledge, they at least are willing to listen and see what we have to present.

Faustus said it, and I hope I put an emphatic exclamation mark on it, the whole idea of snatching power from Gurr rests on a couple of questions that no one seems to be able to answer.

As I said, i read your comments from earlier today, and I thank you for at least reading it before criticizing it. Too many are getting caught up in the general idea of the Constitution without stopping for a second and actually looking at it.

If this is nothing more than a glorified suggestion, then it seems there is no one who disagrees with that much. Only those trying to be contrary or attack a foe will think even that much is too much.

But we did the suggestion box thing since we started, and until the new server went up, exactly how much was accomplished? There were many promises made for improvements that never came to be. Gurr was far too busy trying to pitch his idea for reality TV to be bothered with fixing the glitches here. Time will tell if the new hardware will be an improvement.

Almost all feedback I've received on this project is positive, the vast majority of candidates seem to at least want to try, and even those who say they don't want one are polite about it and are going to see what happens. Except for the usual suspects, almost everyone is either behind this, cautiously waiting, or respectfully declining.

And all that is wonderful.

Too much focus is being put on BigDaddy and Copulate trying to knock this down, seeing Olivia get into yet another bruhaha and put a bunch of dumb boys to shame, whatever. It's overshadowing the real work that many candidates have put into this, and more will be in this project as it continues. Not only is this Constitution perhaps premature, but so is the backlash against it. Fuck, it's only on it's second draft, how many YEARS did it take before the US Constitution was ratified?

For the more mature candidates, I hope you at least read the Constitution, realizing we are indeed working with the moderators to see what can and cannot be included. Set your judgment aside until you see the finished product. Don't close your minds and limit yourselves. Even if you don't like the idea of this in principle, realize the moderators are at least talking about it, so apparently those who cling to the property rights issue are more gung-ho about it than the moderators are!

Again, whether this Constitution succeeds or fails, I will be very proud of what we're doing in putting this together. Those who are merely seeking to knock this over because Olivia is part of it will be seen by the rest as a bunch of thugs who aren't offering anything to U4Prez except harsh laughter and annoyance. Several will take this as a way to laugh me out of here. Whatever. I am proud that we're doing this, and it's being done in a nonpartisan way. This is the largest project the population of U4Prez has ever undertaken, and I still invite anyone who wants to be part of this to contact me.

The Wiz said...

On the "Federalist Papers"...

Big Daddys articles seemed to be a mishmash of fire and brimstone preacher rants, peppered with political wordsmithing. They same such non-sense I have been seeing posted by many users during this, so called debate about the efficacy of even attemping a Constitution.

To the Naysayers....
Mostly what I read from this group is based on the unknown. That being Eric Gurrs intrest or disintrest in the idea of a Constitution. As far as I have seen, he has not publicly condemned it as you so prophecize.

This must be based on the assumption that he is shaking in his boots at the fear that U4Prez is going to be unionized by a bunch of liberal socialist agitators hell bent on destroying corporations and private entity. What a load of WOOOHEEE. This is a completly irrational fear. Based on lack of information from the man himself. You can't read a man's mind by putting your lips to his ass and making puckering noises...Unless Eric Gurr has a blog somewhere handing out cookies to the "customer" of the month for making such bold statements, then I am not buying into it.

To the undecided....
What do you have to fear? Much of this is a culmination of last years lessons learned. As I stated previous, worrying about what Gurr will rubber stamp or not isn't a worry you should have as you have no control of it.

But I think this is also a document for US, the people that come in here and deal with other people on social levels. The moderators can't control who is the party leader, how the debate is conducted, how to deal with people that are cheating, abusive or making up lies to smear characters. Some of that can been dealt through agreements and debate through this Constitutional process.

Right now the only way to go about this is to have puritanical style "witch hunts". Meeting in the town square and burning people at the stake, just because we have MOB rule.

To the particpators:
Please don't get bogged down in this debate for too long. Its already starting to take a toll on the process.

And take the comments and suggestions of the small majority that are pro or opposed to certain aspect of the document itself seriously.

W. Lane Startin said...

So everyone is on the same page, Eric Gurr was sent a copy of Draft Part Deux several days ago, and he has acknowledged receipt of same. Tonight I sent him and U4PrezDev a Cliff's Notes version of the rationale behind some of the key points (e.g. Board of Canvassers, minor parties, election rules, ensuring the integrity of "one person, one vote," etc.). We'll see what comes out of that.

Olivia of Arc

Olivia of Arc
My thanks to TheWiz